Author Topic: Pokémon Gray  (Read 5240 times)

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Offline Kayo

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Re: Pokémon Gray
« Reply #120 on: February 06, 2012, 06:30:02 PM »
Kyurem isn't Uber. In fact, it's in an odd position. It's typing hurts it to to point that it couldn't even make it into OU, but it's too powerful for UU and got sent to BL. Pretty odd.

It's alt form might have a higher BST, however, so it might get banned.
It's so odd, in fact, that I actually wrote a pretty long editorial/rant on it which I still have saved somewhere. I looked into the subject well and I'm still feel kind of weird about where it's placed. I sincerely hope the alt form is Uber, though. Doesn't feel right for a Cover Legendary to be in such a low tier.
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Offline Hero_of_Darkness

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Re: Pokémon Gray
« Reply #121 on: February 06, 2012, 07:19:44 PM »
It's so odd, in fact, that I actually wrote a pretty long editorial/rant on it which I still have saved somewhere. I looked into the subject well and I'm still feel kind of weird about where it's placed. I sincerely hope the alt form is Uber, though. Doesn't feel right for a Cover Legendary to be in such a low tier.
Suicune's even lower this gen. (UU)

Offline Zero

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Re: Pokémon Gray
« Reply #122 on: February 06, 2012, 10:05:04 PM »
How do you want them to change it? Cut it from 2x to 1.5x? Remove it altogether?

I don't really see how it's unbalanced, though.  In fact, I think that it's likely STAB+Super Effective hits that are bothering you. Also, I like that it makes OHKOs common, since it would otherwise make competitive battles too long, and the single-player a chore. I don't want more grinding...

No, STAB and Super effective hits are fine. I also don't mind OHKO's. As for changes, the only real way I know how to make it "balanced" would be to provide equal strength/weakness/immunity ratios. This sounds boring, as there wouldn't really be much of a perk to using one type over another, but at least preferences based on type superiority would be discouraged, because it wouldn't exist to begin with. I don't want that, I just think there could be another way to help make "lesser" types more powerful.

I'm really just talking about the strengths/weaknesses chart. For example, think about the reputation the Fire and Ice types have in competitive gameplay. They're great offensive types, but horrible defensive types. On paper it balances out, but in actual practice, anyone that's into competitive Pokemon knows how it doesn't work out that way.

I'm really surprised that you're trying to imply Pokemon is balanced. I mean, really? As fun as it can be, it most certainly is not a balanced game franchise competitively speaking and it never really has been. Certain types, specific pokemon, and certain team comps run absolutely rampant, and if you really want to get dirty with it, certain moves. Nearly everyone runs Stealth Rock, so you're encouraged to run a Spinner on nearly every team and add plenty of Stealth Rock resistant members to your team. Just another example. I've been there, and performed well. I've had fun, and eventually I just grew tired of how constrained it was.

Competitive pokemon is very boring when played in Ubers or OU, imo.




« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 10:49:15 PM by Michio Kaku »

Offline zephilicious

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Re: Pokémon Gray
« Reply #123 on: February 07, 2012, 03:07:59 AM »
the types can easily be balanced without changing the type chart.

take ice for example:
the biggest problem faced by ice types is the inability to safely switch in. stealth rock is almost always up and takes out 25% of their hp right away. on top of that ice has only 1 resistance so there's almost never a case where you can predict a move and switch in an ice type to absorb it.

if we cut the damage from stealth rock in half we fix the biggest problem faced by ice, fire, flying, and bug types. we also decenter the meta game by stopping a lot of players from using it.
to fix the lack of resistances, we give ice a 50% defense boost in hail, giving them a conditional resistance to half the moves in the game and brining hail teams up to par with sandstorm and rain teams. (well maybe not rain)

boom ice is balanced with two simple move changes. the only side effects being a deemphasis on the most overused move in the game and an increase in the usefulness of other terrible types like fire and bug.
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Offline Neerb

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Re: Pokémon Gray
« Reply #124 on: February 07, 2012, 06:02:54 AM »
Stealth Rock was the worst idea ever; that one freaking move screws more potentially decent Pokemon than Psychics in 1st gen.

Offline Zero

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Re: Pokémon Gray
« Reply #125 on: February 07, 2012, 09:04:35 AM »
Entry hazards aren't necessarily a bad idea. How powerful they are on the other hand is yes, bad.

I like Zeph's idea though.

Offline Hero_of_Darkness

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Re: Pokémon Gray
« Reply #126 on: February 07, 2012, 09:14:55 AM »
No, STAB and Super effective hits are fine. I also don't mind OHKO's. As for changes, the only real way I know how to make it "balanced" would be to provide equal strength/weakness/immunity ratios. This sounds boring, as there wouldn't really be much of a perk to using one type over another, but at least preferences based on type superiority would be discouraged, because it wouldn't exist to begin with. I don't want that, I just think there could be another way to help make "lesser" types more powerful.

I'm really just talking about the strengths/weaknesses chart. For example, think about the reputation the Fire and Ice types have in competitive gameplay. They're great offensive types, but horrible defensive types. On paper it balances out, but in actual practice, anyone that's into competitive Pokemon knows how it doesn't work out that way.

I'm really surprised that you're trying to imply Pokemon is balanced. I mean, really? As fun as it can be, it most certainly is not a balanced game franchise competitively speaking and it never really has been. Certain types, specific pokemon, and certain team comps run absolutely rampant, and if you really want to get dirty with it, certain moves. Nearly everyone runs Stealth Rock, so you're encouraged to run a Spinner on nearly every team and add plenty of Stealth Rock resistant members to your team. Just another example. I've been there, and performed well. I've had fun, and eventually I just grew tired of how constrained it was.

Competitive pokemon is very boring when played in Ubers or OU, imo.
I was talking about super effectiveness being balanced, or at least as balanced as a game with hundreds of monsters can be. Stealth Rock is really the the only issue with effectiveness. Stealth Rock usage dropped a lot this gen due to team preview killing Aerodactyl and it no longer being a TM, though.

At any rate, it's Stealth Rock that needs to be fixed. It either needs to ignore type advantages like Spikes does, be make to act exactly like Spikes, or get some counterparts to it. (By counterparts, I mean other options like it for other types to add more variety. In this case, I'd like it if only one such move could be out at a time.) There also needs to be a better move than Rapid Spin for removing hazards.

Offline zephilicious

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Re: Pokémon Gray
« Reply #127 on: February 07, 2012, 10:08:54 AM »
In this case, I'd like it if only one such move could be out at a time.
if there are multiple types and this is not the case every single pokemon would die on switch in
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Offline Hero_of_Darkness

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Re: Pokémon Gray
« Reply #128 on: February 07, 2012, 10:17:54 AM »
if there are multiple types and this is not the case every single pokemon would die on switch in
Exactly why it should only allow one.

Also, I can't believe that Nintendo nerfed Explosion and Self-Destruct before nerfing SR. That's just dumb. They weren't even close to broken. Now they're basically useless.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 10:20:24 AM by Hero_of_Darkness »

Offline Kayo

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Re: Pokémon Gray
« Reply #129 on: February 07, 2012, 01:13:14 PM »
Suicune's even lower this gen. (UU)
Eh, when I think "Cover Legendary" I think of that higher BST (630+ i think) and the fact that they're banned from in-game battle facilities. Even though Suicune is technically a cover legendary I was talking more about Mewtwo, Lugia, Kyogre, etc.

Exactly why it should only allow one.

Also, I can't believe that Nintendo nerfed Explosion and Self-Destruct before nerfing SR. That's just dumb. They weren't even close to broken. Now they're basically useless.
Pretty much; if your Pokemon gets instantly killed, it's only fair for the opponent to face the same fate, or at least come close. It's too easy to survive it now that its power is essentially halved.

But yeah, SR wasn't so much a BAD idea, but they went a little crazy with the execution. When Fire, Flying, Ice, etc. types are at a blatant disadvantage compared to the rest of the types, it's completely unbalanced. It's not fair for Charizard to enter battles at half HP while Steelix gets barely nicked. It just tips the scale and makes the playing field non-level. If SR damage was affected by type, but didn't exceed 1/3 or something like that, then that would be okay. But otherwise it's just an imbalance against certain types that just breaks the game completely by practically disallowing otherwise very good and usable Pokemon such as the aforementioned Charizard.
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Offline Hero_of_Darkness

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Re: Pokémon Gray
« Reply #130 on: February 07, 2012, 02:42:48 PM »
Pretty much; if your Pokemon gets instantly killed, it's only fair for the opponent to face the same fate, or at least come close. It's too easy to survive it now that its power is essentially halved.
To be fair, those moves were typically only used when the user was about to be KO'd anyway. However, with Ghost-types, Steel-types, Rock-types, and Protect to help deal with it (not to mention use of death fodder), it was completely unnecessary to weaken it.

Offline Kayo

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Re: Pokémon Gray
« Reply #131 on: February 07, 2012, 03:13:36 PM »
To be fair, those moves were typically only used when the user was about to be KO'd anyway. However, with Ghost-types, Steel-types, Rock-types, and Protect to help deal with it (not to mention use of death fodder), it was completely unnecessary to weaken it.
The cost is almost not worth it, though. Overheat with STAB does more than Selfdestruct now, and it doesn't cost the user its life. It can use a White Herb or switch out and it's like nothing happened.
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Offline Hero_of_Darkness

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Re: Pokémon Gray
« Reply #132 on: February 07, 2012, 05:26:36 PM »
The cost is almost not worth it, though. Overheat with STAB does more than Selfdestruct now, and it doesn't cost the user its life. It can use a White Herb or switch out and it's like nothing happened.
True. I was just pointing out that Explosion was rarely used to sacrifice a still useful Pokemon.

Offline Kayo

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Re: Pokémon Gray
« Reply #133 on: February 07, 2012, 06:10:10 PM »
True. I was just pointing out that Explosion was rarely used to sacrifice a still useful Pokemon.
It's also pretty much a one-off move that turns into a waste of a moveslot if it can't even be used to take the opponent down with the user reliably. It's so close in power to a boosted high-power STAB move that it would probably be just as well to use Overheat/Leaf Storm/what have you, even at low HP. Since it could really only be used once, Explosion was often a good inclusion to a moveset solely for the reason that it pretty much always took down a member of the opposing team without fail. But it can't reliably do that anymore.

Really though, even though it COULD have been diluted a little, they definitely were way too harsh on it.
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Offline Zero

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Re: Pokémon Gray
« Reply #134 on: February 07, 2012, 08:53:11 PM »
I was talking about super effectiveness being balanced, or at least as balanced as a game with hundreds of monsters can be.

I think you misunderstood what I was talking about from the get go.