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Legendary Discussion

Started by Macawmoses, April 26, 2011, 06:09:48 PM

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Kayo

Quote from: Z on April 21, 2012, 08:22:14 AM
The legendaries in Gen V don't really seem related to the four horseman of the apocalypse. I thought they were supposed to be the three musketeer + the fabled fourth musketeer.


That seems to be the main inspiration, but after reading an explanation of the four horsemen (Conquest, War, Famine, and Death), I REALLY can't get it out of my head.

If you all are so hell-bent on horses, I'm going to have to really try my ass off to not make them look even remotely similar to the Gen V trio. Which is going to be really, really hard. Also because I don't even remember what they were besides "horses". Someone fill me in.
I really hate how I've made more than 12,000 posts here. Thankfully this swaying, moving Chandelure makes it all worth it.
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JrDude

The greek Gods, Zeus, Hades, Poseidon, and a Goddess who's origin I don't recall, but feeds people fruit or something.
Regardless, for the grass one, someone would have to look around in the old thread. It still exists. It would be pure Grass I think.
The Poseidon-based one is a Hippocamp or something, that makes it's lower-half mermaid-like. Pure Water.
Zeus one is a Pegasus. Either Electric/Flying, or pure Flying. Maybe even the first ever Normal/Flying? I don't remember what was decided.
Hades is a hellish horse who does not share a lot of qualities of Rapidash. Dark/Fire

And don't worry about whether they look like the other trio or not. None of them really look like horses, they're just on all fours.
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Dude .

Kayo

Quote from: JrDude 益 on April 22, 2012, 10:21:32 PM
The greek Gods, Zeus, Hades, Poseidon, and a Goddess who's origin I don't recall, but feeds people fruit or something.
Regardless, for the grass one, someone would have to look around in the old thread. It still exists. It would be pure Grass I think.
The Poseidon-based one is a Hippocamp or something, that makes it's lower-half mermaid-like. Pure Water.
Zeus one is a Pegasus. Either Electric/Flying, or pure Flying. Maybe even the first ever Normal/Flying? I don't remember what was decided.
Hades is a hellish horse who does not share a lot of qualities of Rapidash. Dark/Fire

And don't worry about whether they look like the other trio or not. None of them really look like horses, they're just on all fours.
Keldeo looks entirely, 100% equine. Just sayin'

For "Pegasus", I don't want to do Electric/Flying. We've had two legendary trio members of that type combination. Also, pure Flying has been a staple on fandexes back when we had 4 or less generations. Even though Gen V included one, I kind of want to make one of our legendaries (this one is perfect) a pure-flying type out of fandex tradition.

Wait, why do we have four, again? That's just another similarity to Gen V's main trio that doesn't make me entirely comfortable. Why not three?
I really hate how I've made more than 12,000 posts here. Thankfully this swaying, moving Chandelure makes it all worth it.
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Zero

well... http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Legendary_musketeers

I think the Four Horseman/Gods idea(s) would be pretty decent. I get why you keep thinking of the muskateers, but this is all just for poops and giggles anyway right?

Kayo

Quote from: Z on April 23, 2012, 05:26:27 PM
well... http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Legendary_musketeers

I think the Four Horseman/Gods idea(s) would be pretty decent. I get why you keep thinking of the muskateers, but this is all just for poops and giggles anyway right?
Um, we're not doing the Four Horsemen, because the Muskateers can also be taken that way. They appear to be a mixture of the two. Actually, I found an image that sort of backs up where I'm coming from and explains it better than I can. May be a bit farfetched, but it certainly made me think.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
May be just a coincidence, but it's pretty darn close. Close enough that we are sure as hell not doing the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.
I really hate how I've made more than 12,000 posts here. Thankfully this swaying, moving Chandelure makes it all worth it.
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Zero

I like the image because I do think that a lot of the pokemon are related to the enviroment , but have to point out that the whole 2012 thing has nothing to do with it. Game Freak is not poking fun at the overwhelming minority of Americans that believe that December 21st 2012 is the end. In addition to that...

They are not a mixture of the two. They are officially, based off of the muskateers.

I understand trying to connect things like Kangaskhan and Cubone, but there is little to no basis on them being based off the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.

All four stand up for Pokemon against human expansion. Have an ability called Justified(you know, referencing Justice? Not God's justice, christ.) They have sword based moves and are the fighting type. They do not wreak havoc or terror. They do not spread disease. They are not harbingers of the apocalypse. Keldeo is most certainly not based off the horseman of death.

Don't you think that they would have different types if they were based off the Four Horseman? Give Game Freak more credit than that. They would certainly not all be the Fighting type.

Kayo

Zero, Zero, Zero. Please try to understand.
Quote from: Z on April 25, 2012, 07:03:08 PM
I like the image because I do think that a lot of the pokemon are related to the enviroment , but have to point out that the whole 2012 thing has nothing to do with it. Game Freak is not poking fun at the overwhelming minority of Americans that believe that December 21st 2012 is the end. In addition to that...
No, no, no... no one said they were based off 2012 in any way...

QuoteThey are not a mixture of the two. They are officially, based off of the muskateers.
They say that, yeah. But there are way too many similarities for me to feel comfortable in calling it a coincidence. I do believe that they probably at least considered the Horsemen slightly when going through with the designs (i mean, tons of ideas float across the drawing boards in pre-alpha phases), but focused mainly on the Three Muskateers as they ironed out the details.

QuoteI understand trying to connect things like Kangaskhan and Cubone, but there is little to no basis on them being based off the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.
The stuff stated in that pic is plenty of basis, especially compared to the Cubone/Kangaskhan thing. The only thing they have there is that they look similar. Clefairy and Jigglypuff are both pink and fairylike. Big whoop. There's probably more basis on this than Cubone and Kangaskhan, but it's ultimately opinion.

QuoteAll four stand up for Pokemon against human expansion. Have an ability called Justified(you know, referencing Justice? Not God's justice, christ.) They have sword based moves and are the fighting type. They do not wreak havoc or terror. They do not spread disease. They are not harbingers of the apocalypse. Keldeo is most certainly not based off the horseman of death.
Who seriously said they were referencing some kind of divine justice. And finally....

QuoteDon't you think that they would have different types if they were based off the Four Horseman? Give Game Freak more credit than that. They would certainly not all be the Fighting type.
You're looking way too far into this, my dear Zero. They're based primarily off the Three Muskateers. But the image presents a case for the Horsemen so well, it really made me thing. No one ever said that they were based on the Four Horsemen. I just said that they may have inspired them a bit, which is entirely true given the similarities. It could have been an absolute minor nod that held no significance that carried over to types and abilities. All I'm saying is that it's possible.

But seriously, you're looking way too far into if. You're taking my possibility of a slight nod to the Horsemen and twisting it into me trying to pass off the idea that they WEREN'T based on the Muskateers. They definitely share similarities with both (albeit one more than the other), but if you're saying that they're nothing like the Four Horsemen.... well, you're just blind. Coincidence or not, it's definitely there.

Who knows? Maybe they had originally, I mean WAY back, planned on making a trio/quartet on the Four Horsemen, but ultimately settled on the Muskateers instead. There could have been MANY ideas being exchanged there. Maybe they picked the Muskateers as the best idea, but really liked the Horsemen too and found subtle ways to let it secretly live on. Here's the thing, though. It's opinion. You can't prove that their inspiration isn't there, and you can't prove that it isn't. What you can prove is the slight similarities, but whether you choose to take that as coincidence or not is up to each individual.

Okay, but STILL, no one has answered my question. Why exactly do we need four, again? We can't have a simple trio like in Gens I-IV? I don't see the point in adding a fourth, so tell me what the point behind it was simply because I do not know.
I really hate how I've made more than 12,000 posts here. Thankfully this swaying, moving Chandelure makes it all worth it.
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Zero

The image states Divine justice is reference to the Justified ability. That's...you know, what I was talking about. It also makes a claim for the 2012 thing at the very top. I'm not sure if you didn't see them or...

Yeah man, not saying you can't speculate. You can do whatever. I'm just saying that I don't see why we can't explore the four horseman idea, because those four are officially based off the muskateers and NOT the horsemen. I don't really see the similarities. The "similarities" in that image were incorrectly inferred because none of it is official.

To answer your question, uhhhhhhh I dunno. I'm down for a trio.







JrDude

These horses we're creating are based on Greek Gods, I don't remember why we chose horses, but we did, and we stick to it.

You are both looking into this more than you need. Stop caring and move to our horses and not the Three Mustangeers. Wanna talk about it? TAKE IT OUT OF THE DEX! We aren't the national Dex yet, we can't make info for other Pokémon yet until we complete this one!
(Obviously a joke referring to real Dexs, I'm not serious about making "info" on other Pokémon)

Why are we doing 4? I honestly don't remember. It was originally gonna be 3, but someone said "THERE SHOULD BE A FOURTH BECAUSE OF LOGIC AND SHIT" and then I think Rob brought up the Grass Goddess or something and we stuck to it. I honestly can live with only the Water, Dark, and Fly being used, as they are based off the Gods I actually know poop about.
EDITWITHOUTEDIT (I realized after typing it all up but didn't want to erase)
I THINK someone said "Zues is too powerful to be just in a trio, he should be a regular legendary.-- No, there's only 3 Greek Gods, he needs to be part of the trio. -- How about A FOURTH AND ZUES IS THE TRIO LEADER LIKE KLEDIO (or whatever that unicorn is)?!" and then we eventually agreed I think.

I'm fine with just 3.
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Dude .

Zero


Kayo

Quote from: Z on April 26, 2012, 09:08:29 PM
The image states Divine justice is reference to the Justified ability. That's...you know, what I was talking about. It also makes a claim for the 2012 thing at the very top. I'm not sure if you didn't see them or...
Pretty sure that's just another way to look at it. Now, I don't agree with absolutely everything in that image, I just posted it to call attention to that one part.

QuoteYeah man, not saying you can't speculate. You can do whatever. I'm just saying that I don't see why we can't explore the four horseman idea, because those four are officially based off the muskateers and NOT the horsemen. I don't really see the similarities. The "similarities" in that image were incorrectly inferred because none of it is official.
Yeah, but just because something hasn't been "officially confirmed" doesn't mean it's not true. I'm sticking with the idea that GF could very well have considered the Four Horsemen at one point, if even briefly, before settling on the Muskateers. And then, they felt like NOT making the legendary trio overly simple like the lake trio was, so they decided to incorporate some extra features that weren't entirely from the Muskateers. All I'm saying is it's an interesting point of view that I doubt anyone would have considered before seeing it point out to them. I think it's pretty cool as a possibility.

QuoteTo answer your question, uhhhhhhh I dunno. I'm down for a trio.
I think maybe because some trios had an external trio leader (Wasn't Lugia the leader of the Legendary birds or something? More accurately, Regigigas is the leader of the three Regis.), but the leader wasn't introduced in the same generation as the rest of them. And it doesn't share many similarities with its earlier generation trio. We don't really have trios with a clear leader introduced all at once, which is why I'm wondering why we felt it was necessary here. Thinking of Regigigas as the best example of a trio leader, it seems like it was thrown in more as a "Let's see how many legendaries we can cram in here!" than anything else.

I just think it would be superfluous. Perhaps we should stick with the Birds/Beasts/Regi-like trio, two "cover legendaries", a "cover legendary leader", and some small, cute legendary. That's seven legendaries. Gen I had 5, Gen II had 6, Gen III had 10, Gen IV had... 13? (not counting Phione), and Gen V had 13 (I think). Personally, I thought we had way too many in Gen IV onward, and III was a bit of a stretch, though my opinion might be different since I'm particularly fond of Gen III's legendaries.

I dunno, I'd much rather have a "cover legendary leader/3rd member" like Rayquaza, Giratina, and Kyurem than a fourth member of a trio. What do you guys think of that?

Quote from: JrDude 益 on April 26, 2012, 11:03:37 PM
These horses we're creating are based on Greek Gods, I don't remember why we chose horses, but we did, and we stick to it.

You are both looking into this more than you need. Stop caring and move to our horses and not the Three Mustangeers. Wanna talk about it? TAKE IT OUT OF THE DEX! We aren't the national Dex yet, we can't make info for other Pokémon yet until we complete this one!
(Obviously a joke referring to real Dexs, I'm not serious about making "info" on other Pokémon)
I.... literally have no idea what you're trying to say here. Especially after reading that transparent text. Just....yeah.

QuoteWhy are we doing 4? I honestly don't remember. It was originally gonna be 3, but someone said "THERE SHOULD BE A FOURTH BECAUSE OF LOGIC AND SHIT" and then I think Rob brought up the Grass Goddess or something and we stuck to it. I honestly can live with only the Water, Dark, and Fly being used, as they are based off the Gods I actually know poop about.
EDITWITHOUTEDIT (I realized after typing it all up but didn't want to erase)
I THINK someone said "Zues is too powerful to be just in a trio, he should be a regular legendary.-- No, there's only 3 Greek Gods, he needs to be part of the trio. -- How about A FOURTH AND ZUES IS THE TRIO LEADER LIKE KLEDIO (or whatever that unicorn is)?!" and then we eventually agreed I think.

I'm fine with just 3.
Yeah, I really wouldn't be crushed if we stuck with three, but I do have an idea of a compromise.

We don't make Zeus a horse, but we incorporate Zeus' elements (electricity) and features into the "3rd cover legendary". That way we still use Zeus in some way, but we kill two birds with one stone by lumping it in with.... with.... Vaatixmon.
I really hate how I've made more than 12,000 posts here. Thankfully this swaying, moving Chandelure makes it all worth it.
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JrDude

Now you're confusing the poop out of me.

I never said we don't use Zeus, we should say "Screw you grass horse" As I don't even remember the name of the Goddess it's based off of, and the original idea of the trio's base was the 3 main Greek Gods, Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades. No 4th was in mind, no grass was in mind. Then someone (was it YOU KAYO?!) said Zeus is too powerful to be a minor trio legendary, so it sparked the lame "ADD A 4TH HORSE" idea.
If we add anything, it should probably be the father of the Gods we're basing it off of, Kronos (WHY DIDN'T THIS COME TO MIND EARLIER AS "TRIO LEADER?" I DON'T KNOW). Whether it be a horse or not, it should exist as the 3rd cover legendary, and be based on Kronos, who was overthrown by his son Zeus. Though if we create info, we can make it so the whole trio did something to it and it's now mad? IDK.

But the main point I want clear, If we only do a trio, it's still Fly, Water, and Dark/Fire. We can say "screw you Ms. Grass Goddess legendary base"
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Dude .

Kayo

Quote from: JrDude 益 on April 27, 2012, 11:27:54 PM
Now you're confusing the poop out of me.

I never said we don't use Zeus, we should say "Screw you grass horse" As I don't even remember the name of the Goddess it's based off of, and the original idea of the trio's base was the 3 main Greek Gods, Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades. No 4th was in mind, no grass was in mind. Then someone (was it YOU KAYO?!) said Zeus is too powerful to be a minor trio legendary, so it sparked the lame "ADD A 4TH HORSE" idea.
I think it was Rob.


QuoteIf we add anything, it should probably be the father of the Gods we're basing it off of, Kronos (WHY DIDN'T THIS COME TO MIND EARLIER AS "TRIO LEADER?" I DON'T KNOW). Whether it be a horse or not, it should exist as the 3rd cover legendary, and be based on Kronos, who was overthrown by his son Zeus. Though if we create info, we can make it so the whole trio did something to it and it's now mad? IDK.

But the main point I want clear, If we only do a trio, it's still Fly, Water, and Dark/Fire. We can say "screw you Ms. Grass Goddess legendary base"
Two single-typed Pokemon and one dual-typed. They've always either had one type or shared a secondary type. (Don't get me started on the lake trio.) Kinda weird. Not entirely sure it would need two types. Maybe a single type, but still learning moves of the other type in theory. Idunno. Or we mix some element of a secondary type into Poseidon (Who says it has to be pure water? No reason we can't combine Poseidon-ness with another type like Steel or something), then we'd have two dual typed and one single typed.... but the single is a rare "combination" in itself anyway. Again, Idunno. Wouldn't mind making Poseidon dual-typed, tbh.

Kronos. I'm no expert on Greek mythology so I never thought of that. I'm confused.

I still don't want a legendary quartet, though, regardless.
I really hate how I've made more than 12,000 posts here. Thankfully this swaying, moving Chandelure makes it all worth it.
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JrDude

If we give Poseidon a second type, the types that come to my mind are: Normal (He once slept with a human, so it sparked the idea. Doesn't mean I really like the idea, especially since Zeus slept with a human as well), Electric (The trident seems like it could be a good thing to shoot out electricity, though, Neptune from the Little Mermaid is in mind when I think of this. I don't really like this idea either since Electric would be a good but not necessary type for the Zeus one), Psychic (This just came to mind randomly, seems interesting, unique, but doesn't really fit), Ice (Ice =~ Water, he could control both? It would be a first for a Legendary). But NO Steel (Palkia, Empoleon)... Though, I guess the idea isn't TERRIBLE...

I'm going either Water/Ice, or Pure Water. It wouldn't be the end of the world either if Hades was just Dark with Fire-like features, but for some reason, I feel against just Pure Fire type. Partially because of Rapidash being Pure Fire Horse, partially because, Darkness seems like it needs to be there in my opinion.

In regards to the Quartet, I don't care if it's one or not. But you said you wanted relation between the horses and the 3rd cover legendary by it being related to Zeus, so I threw out the idea of Kronos. Does it need to be a Horse? Not necessarily, but it could still relate in some way.
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Dude .

Kayo

Quote from: JrDude 益 on April 30, 2012, 11:26:51 PM
If we give Poseidon a second type, the types that come to my mind are: Normal (He once slept with a human, so it sparked the idea. Doesn't mean I really like the idea, especially since Zeus slept with a human as well), Electric (The trident seems like it could be a good thing to shoot out electricity, though, Neptune from the Little Mermaid is in mind when I think of this. I don't really like this idea either since Electric would be a good but not necessary type for the Zeus one), Psychic (This just came to mind randomly, seems interesting, unique, but doesn't really fit), Ice (Ice =~ Water, he could control both? It would be a first for a Legendary). But NO Steel (Palkia, Empoleon)... Though, I guess the idea isn't TERRIBLE...
Legendary Pokemon that gets Normal along with its recognized type? Gross. Don't worry about Psychic not "fitting", we don't need to make a secondary type fit, though it wouldn't be wise to do anything outrageous here. Also, Palkia is Water/Dragon. Just sayin'.

QuoteI'm going either Water/Ice, or Pure Water. It wouldn't be the end of the world either if Hades was just Dark with Fire-like features, but for some reason, I feel against just Pure Fire type. Partially because of Rapidash being Pure Fire Horse, partially because, Darkness seems like it needs to be there in my opinion.
I personally don't think Hades needs to be a Fire-type. I know, Underworld, Hell, Fire and Brimstone, bawww, but it wouldn't be a bad idea to just emphasize darkness here. I'm also getting a bit of a Headless Horseman vibe, which I kind of like. As for Poseidon again, why Water/Ice? Water-type Pokemon have always, repeat, ALWAYS, been able to use Ice Beam/Blizzard as long as they are able to use TMs in the first place. Ice is just a plain hindering type on Water. It's a horrible thing to do to ol' Poseidon. Pure water wouldn't be bad; I mean, so far we've had Suicune, Kyogre, and Manaphy (Keldeo isn't really "out" as far as the point I'm making) in that department. All have been really functional in battling because of their type: Pure Water is a pretty great type. If we had Zeus/Poseidon/Hades and they were Electric, Water, and Dark, I would approve of that 100%. I think that's a great idea. We have Zeus at the front of the group, slightly leading the two (sort of like Cobalion), Poseidon being there doin' his thing, controlling 75% of the Earth's covering. And then Hades being all gloomy and poop in the third slot. Could really work.

QuoteIn regards to the Quartet, I don't care if it's one or not. But you said you wanted relation between the horses and the 3rd cover legendary by it being related to Zeus, so I threw out the idea of Kronos. Does it need to be a Horse? Not necessarily, but it could still relate in some way.
VaatiKronoMon isn't gonna be a horse. I'm pretty sure we were thinking of something non-horse for it, I don't want a fourth horse, and it should really be something else. I like the Kronos idea, though, and I really think Kronos + Zeus/Poseidon/Hades would be perfect for our legendaries.
I really hate how I've made more than 12,000 posts here. Thankfully this swaying, moving Chandelure makes it all worth it.
[move][/move]