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Game-o-rama => General Gaming => Pokemon => Topic started by: The Riddler on March 06, 2012, 01:33:40 PM

Title: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: The Riddler on March 06, 2012, 01:33:40 PM
I know it's more complicated than it sounds due to changes between generations, but what if they made a storage device that allowed you to transfer between all generations?

Pop your Red into the device, download your Pokemon, pop in your Black/White, upload your Pokemon.

Guarantee it'd sell. They'd just need to be able to find a way to convert things like: Adding Genders to R/B pokemon, removing moves that are incompatible with other generations, no held items etc.

If they developed a proper conversion system it could work in reverse too.

I feel like the technology can be based on what they did with Pokemon Stadium/Box/etc.
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: Super on March 06, 2012, 02:39:32 PM
Remakes would sell better.
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: The Riddler on March 06, 2012, 03:20:33 PM
Quote from: Super on March 06, 2012, 02:39:32 PM
Remakes would sell better.
I want my original Pikachu :(
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: Neerb on March 06, 2012, 05:15:50 PM
Quote from: The Riddler on March 06, 2012, 03:20:33 PM
I want my original Pikachu :(

What did it have that you can't get now?
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: The Riddler on March 06, 2012, 05:47:30 PM
Quote from: Neerb on March 06, 2012, 05:15:50 PM
What did it have that you can't get now?
my trainer id and nostalgia.

the point is it'd be nice to be able to take the effort from the older games and bring it up to the newer games (or vice versa) without having to replay the remakes.

i got leafgreen and heartgold, but i'll be honest i didn't have it in me to play them all the way through again
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: Hero_of_Darkness on March 06, 2012, 05:48:10 PM
Impossible. The Pokemon in Gens I and II are coded completely differently than they are in III-V.
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: zephilicious on March 06, 2012, 06:58:53 PM
Quote from: Hero_of_Darkness on March 06, 2012, 05:48:10 PM
Impossible. The Pokemon in Gens I and II are coded completely differently than they are in III-V.
that is entirely irrelevant

it wont happen because it's pointless not because it's impossible.
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: Hero_of_Darkness on March 06, 2012, 08:51:22 PM
Quote from: zephilicious on March 06, 2012, 06:58:53 PM
that is entirely irrelevant

it wont happen because it's pointless not because it's impossible.
But it is impossible.
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: The Riddler on March 06, 2012, 08:59:44 PM
Quote from: Hero_of_Darkness on March 06, 2012, 08:51:22 PM
But it is impossible.
QuoteThey'd just need to be able to find a way to convert things
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: Kayo on March 06, 2012, 09:06:32 PM
Quote from: Hero_of_Darkness on March 06, 2012, 05:48:10 PM
Impossible. The Pokemon in Gens I and II are coded completely differently than they are in III-V.
This. Something to do with all the personality values and such (The personality values, though, allow Pokemon traded from Gen I to Gen II to receive genders).

If you'll notice, nearly every generation can receive Pokemon from one generation below it.
I -> II
III -> IV
IV -> V

The only exception, I and II are separated from III, IV, and V, for the reason Hero mentioned.

The system could not work in reverse, even theoretically.

Basically, stop being lazy and just intercourse ing raise a Pokemon again. The only reason you want your level 100 Charizard from Red that you've been training for 10 years is because you're just too lazy to raise a Pokemon a second time (Even though the newer Gens provide more efficient ways to level up more quickly).

Plus, you couldn't have even put much effort into pokemon in Gen I and II games that couldn't be replicated easily. It's not like you did crazy IV breeding and EV training, because such forms of effort-based training were next-to-impossible back then.

The only thing that could possibly justify wanting to transfer from I and II to III-IV-V would be if you had a shiny Pokemon in gen II, but then again it's really not worth much since shinies were statistically 128 times easier to obtain in Gen II anyway.

Quote from: The Riddler on March 06, 2012, 01:33:40 PM
Guarantee it'd sell. They'd just need to be able to find a way to convert things like: Adding Genders to R/B pokemon, removing moves that are incompatible with other generations, no held items etc.
If you're so confident, find a way to convert it yourself.

Genders already can be added to R/B Pokemon, and you clearly have no clue what you're talking about if you didn't know that.

Removing moves that are incompatible could leave a Pokemon with an empty moveset, which every game so far has done everything to prevent.
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: zephilicious on March 06, 2012, 09:44:24 PM
Quote from: Hero_of_Darkness on March 06, 2012, 08:51:22 PM
But it is impossible.
oh god i programmed an entire series of video games how do i convert numbers???
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: Hero_of_Darkness on March 07, 2012, 06:11:56 AM
Quote from: The Riddler on March 06, 2012, 08:59:44 PM

They can't do it. The changes to the EV-IV system alone would result in the conversion being a totally differnt Pokemon. The only things you'd keep are moveset and trainer ID.

Quote from: zephilicious on March 06, 2012, 09:44:24 PM
oh god i programmed an entire series of video games how do i convert numbers???
It's not about converting numbers. The systems just aren't compatible. From the get-go, they'd have to erase all of the stat exp, so you'd end up with much lower stats after the "conversion".
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: zephilicious on March 07, 2012, 01:42:57 PM
Quote from: Hero_of_Darkness on March 07, 2012, 06:11:56 AM
They can't do it. The changes to the EV-IV system alone would result in the conversion being a totally differnt Pokemon. The only things you'd keep are moveset and trainer ID.
It's not about converting numbers. The systems just aren't compatible. From the get-go, they'd have to erase all of the stat exp, so you'd end up with much lower stats after the "conversion".

This is not what impossible means.


You would keep the species, nickname, moveset, and trainer ID (the only things 90% of the audience for this would notice)
If we're pulling from gen ii we can keep gender, hold item, shinyness, and pokerus as well.
IV conversion is straightforward so you can keep those too.
Base stats haven't changed since gen ii, so that carries over.

EVs are the only thing that can't be straight up converted, and thats only because of the lack of a global max (per stat they function almost the same way, just squared).

The simple solution is to scale EVs based on the maximum even distribution possible in gen 3+. It would have a minor impact on the stats of well trained pokemon, but the only players that care would not use this for all kinds of reasons much more significant than EVs.

And on top of that we already have a precedent for stat changes with the special split between gens 1 and 2.
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: Hero_of_Darkness on March 07, 2012, 05:20:34 PM
Quote from: zephilicious on March 07, 2012, 01:42:57 PM
This is not what impossible means.


You would keep the species, nickname, moveset, and trainer ID (the only things 90% of the audience for this would notice)
If we're pulling from gen ii we can keep gender, hold item, shinyness, and pokerus as well.
IV conversion is straightforward so you can keep those too.
Base stats haven't changed since gen ii, so that carries over.

EVs are the only thing that can't be straight up converted, and thats only because of the lack of a global max (per stat they function almost the same way, just squared).

The simple solution is to scale EVs based on the maximum even distribution possible in gen 3+. It would have a minor impact on the stats of well trained pokemon, but the only players that care would not use this for all kinds of reasons much more significant than EVs.

And on top of that we already have a precedent for stat changes with the special split between gens 1 and 2.
First of all, they wouldn't allow hold items to be transferred. Between the items that don't exist in newer games and the cloning glitch, there's just no way it would be allowed.

The IV changes would mean a change in Hidden Power, which means that some people will be forced to change that move for something else if they have it. (Also, I don't even want to think about how they would have to handle Unown conversions...)

Your EV idea is, frankly, stupid. A well trained Pokemon would have every stat maxed. To distribute EVs, each stat for a maxed Pokemon would have to lose 42 stat points. Something tells me that they would notice that their favorite Pokemon's HP is suddenly 42 points lower, and that's when the reality sets in that they just deleted the Pokemon they were attached to in favor of a weakened clone.

And no, EVs aren't the only thing. In Gen II, IVs were used to determine gender and shininess. In later gens, however, they use the personality value. The converter would need to be set up in such a way that the trainer ID, SID, and personality value of each Pokemon don't cause a conflict. A lot of the time, this won't be an issue. However, even if each Pokemon is given its own SID, there's a chance that a shiny Pokemon won't be shiny after tranfer, or a male will become a female, or vice-versa.
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: zephilicious on March 07, 2012, 06:07:41 PM
Quote from: Hero_of_Darkness on March 07, 2012, 05:20:34 PM
First of all, they wouldn't allow hold items to be transferred. Between the items that don't exist in newer games and the cloning glitch, there's just no way it would be allowed.

The IV changes would mean a change in Hidden Power, which means that some people will be forced to change that move for something else if they have it. (Also, I don't even want to think about how they would have to handle Unown conversions...)

Your EV idea is, frankly, stupid. A well trained Pokemon would have every stat maxed. To distribute EVs, each stat for a maxed Pokemon would have to lose 42 stat points. Something tells me that they would notice that their favorite Pokemon's HP is suddenly 42 points lower, and that's when the reality sets in that they just deleted the Pokemon they were attached to in favor of a weakened clone.

And no, EVs aren't the only thing. In Gen II, IVs were used to determine gender and shininess. In later gens, however, they use the personality value. The converter would need to be set up in such a way that the trainer ID, SID, and personality value of each Pokemon don't cause a conflict. A lot of the time, this won't be an issue. However, even if each Pokemon is given its own SID, there's a chance that a shiny Pokemon won't be shiny after tranfer, or a male will become a female, or vice-versa.

I said simple solution not best. A better compromise would be to take the square root of the EVs, then scale back to 510 if the max is still too high, possibly scaling the weaker stats back more to preserve the best stats. Natures can also be used to adjust the stats to a closer match. Combine that with the fact that the discrepancy scales with level, and most pokemon are not level 100 (aside from rare candy duplication, but those pokemon wont have maxed EVs) and the changes will be unnoticeable to the average player.


Everything else is not a problem as long as we only need to move forwards.
IVs need to be doubled, which leaves room for a rounding error of 1 on each stat. That's enough room to come up with a close, if not exact, hidden power match.

Gen 2 does not have a personality value to preserve, so one can be procedurally generated to preserve everything else. This is always possible.



Of course the simpler option for everybody would be to revamp the pokemon data again in gen vi to accommodate both systems. Perhaps introduce some 'legacy pokemon' concept that allows overcharged EVs. Balance would not be an issue considering all the disadvantages such pokemon would have (no egg moves, dream world abilities, etc.)
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: Kayo on March 07, 2012, 08:06:35 PM
Quote from: Hero_of_Darkness on March 07, 2012, 05:20:34 PM
And no, EVs aren't the only thing. In Gen II, IVs were used to determine gender and shininess. In later gens, however, they use the personality value. The converter would need to be set up in such a way that the trainer ID, SID, and personality value of each Pokemon don't cause a conflict. A lot of the time, this won't be an issue. However, even if each Pokemon is given its own SID, there's a chance that a shiny Pokemon won't be shiny after tranfer, or a male will become a female, or vice-versa.
Oh yeah, I completely forgot this. Yeah, it's in no way possible to carry all this over perfectly.
Besides, I'd rather play my favorite old Pokemon on the game where they performed the best. Psychic types were the best in Gen I, so leave them there.

And it goes back to a tl;dr Everybody stop being suck lazy intercourse s and intercourse ing train Pokemon again dear god you complain about the games not giving you enough free passes just shut up
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: Hero_of_Darkness on March 07, 2012, 09:16:53 PM
Quote from: zephilicious on March 07, 2012, 06:07:41 PM
I said simple solution not best. A better compromise would be to take the square root of the EVs, then scale back to 510 if the max is still too high, possibly scaling the weaker stats back more to preserve the best stats. Natures can also be used to adjust the stats to a closer match. Combine that with the fact that the discrepancy scales with level, and most pokemon are not level 100 (aside from rare candy duplication, but those pokemon wont have maxed EVs) and the changes will be unnoticeable to the average player.


Everything else is not a problem as long as we only need to move forwards.
IVs need to be doubled, which leaves room for a rounding error of 1 on each stat. That's enough room to come up with a close, if not exact, hidden power match.

Gen 2 does not have a personality value to preserve, so one can be procedurally generated to preserve everything else. This is always possible.



Of course the simpler option for everybody would be to revamp the pokemon data again in gen vi to accommodate both systems. Perhaps introduce some 'legacy pokemon' concept that allows overcharged EVs. Balance would not be an issue considering all the disadvantages such pokemon would have (no egg moves, dream world abilities, etc.)
I was going to type up an argument to this, but I don't see this going anywhere since you obviously think that there are no limits with programming. That last paragraph is such a silly idea that I don't even know where to begin.
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: Flying Chickens on March 07, 2012, 10:03:04 PM
Quote from: Hero_of_Darkness on March 07, 2012, 09:16:53 PM
I was going to type up an argument to this, but I don't see this going anywhere since you obviously think that there are no limits with programming. That last paragraph is such a silly idea that I don't even know where to begin.
You're such a pessimist, I'm taking away your speaking rights until you learn how to look on the bright side of life. Fuck, go eat a Happy Meal or something, you glass-half-empty fascist.
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: zephilicious on March 08, 2012, 01:18:32 AM
Quote from: Hero_of_Darkness on March 07, 2012, 09:16:53 PM
since you obviously think that there are no limits with programming.

I hate saying this, but I have a bachelor's degree in CS. This is completely true and you'd have to be an idiot to disagree.

(i lied i dont hate bragging)
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: Hero_of_Darkness on March 08, 2012, 04:25:29 AM
Maybe "impossible" was a bit strong, but "impractical" definitely fits. Plus, I honestly don't think it would sell, especially once word of mouth about the compromises gets out.

And thinking that "no egg moves past Gen II" would balance a maxed-out Tyranitar is just... what? And then add in the legendaries...
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: Zero on March 08, 2012, 11:34:29 AM
They should just start from scratch imo.

Fuck EVs and IVs. There just has to be a better way.
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: Hero_of_Darkness on March 08, 2012, 03:07:18 PM
Quote from: Michio Kaku on March 08, 2012, 11:34:29 AM
They should just start from scratch imo.

Fuck EVs and IVs. There just has to be a better way.
There really isn't. At least, nothing that wouldn't make it even more complex either for players or GF. And it's not like they're complicated in the first place. :/ IV breeding is annoying, but EV training has been made ridiculously easy at this point.
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: zephilicious on March 08, 2012, 03:32:55 PM
Without them every pokemon is identical. This is clearly not a good solution.

If there is any individuality system in place it can and will be abused. The system as it stands now works well because most people have no reason to bother with it, and dont know they're missing anything.

For the people that want to abuse it, items introduced in recent generations make it incredibly easy to do so.

currently the only people that have issue with the system is the very small group on the border that know EVs and IVs exist but cant or wont bother to learn how to use them.

Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: RX-78-2 on March 12, 2012, 03:08:45 AM
Wow, this is an interesting idea. I'd like to see it happen too, but I'm not sure it can be done. While I don't think it's impossible (practically impossible, yes) to have your old Pokémon in the newer games, I'm not sure that the device would work in the way that you suggested, Riddler.

The only thing I can come up with is the honor system, which would be abused to no end. Developers could make a device that connects to the DS games that use the same game mechanics and the player would input the stats, movesets, etc. of their Pokémon from the older game and the device would create the newer stats for the Pokémon with a RNG. Maybe the "transferred" Pokémon would be programmed to not be allowed in trades or real battles. I don't know.

As for if it would sell, that depends on the price. Diehard fans would probably go for it if it was $20 at most. I'm not sure if anyone would pay more. I know I'd pay 35$ at most.
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: Zero on March 12, 2012, 06:16:37 AM
Quote from: Hero_of_Darkness on March 08, 2012, 03:07:18 PM
There really isn't. At least, nothing that wouldn't make it even more complex either for players or GF. And it's not like they're complicated in the first place. :/ IV breeding is annoying, but EV training has been made ridiculously easy at this point.

Quote from: zephilicious on March 08, 2012, 03:32:55 PM
currently the only people that have issue with the system is the very small group on the border that know EVs and IVs exist but cant or wont bother to learn how to use them.


I wasn't really suggesting we take out any form of individuality system, just you know, improve on the one we have or start of scratch with a revamped system. Nor was I suggesting that my problem was that they were complicated(laughable).

You're correct that any system will be abused, but your assumption right here is not. I'm not a part of either camp. I play pokemon competitively, but find it incredibly annoying to this day to breed for IVs or EV train. Maybe its because I still enjoy pokemon but don't have the time to invest in breeding for IVs or maybe its because the system is completely arbitrary to begin with. Either way, its a poopty system over all. When exploiting it, often times you're left over with 2 EV points for example. Trying to say they we can't have something better is pretty cynical.

I've turned to Battle Simulators like Pokemon Online and Shoddy because of how they take all of that bullpoop out of the equation.
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: Kayo on March 12, 2012, 02:33:39 PM
Quote from: Michio Kaku on March 12, 2012, 06:16:37 AM

I wasn't really suggesting we take out any form of individuality system, just you know, improve on the one we have or start of scratch with a revamped system. Nor was I suggesting that my problem was that they were complicated(laughable).

You're correct that any system will be abused, but your assumption right here is not. I'm not a part of either camp. I play pokemon competitively, but find it incredibly annoying to this day to breed for IVs or EV train. Maybe its because I still enjoy pokemon but don't have the time to invest in breeding for IVs or maybe its because the system is completely arbitrary to begin with. Either way, its a poopty system over all. When exploiting it, often times you're left over with 2 EV points for example. Trying to say they we can't have something better is pretty cynical.

I've turned to Battle Simulators like Pokemon Online and Shoddy because of how they take all of that bullpoop out of the equation.
Or you can just use Pokesav to make your life easier. I've done it before, but I try to avoid guilt by not doing anything on there that I couldn't just do myself (albeit taking much more time to do so).

I acquire the Pokemon's parents and breed them normally, then I upload the offspring, correct its IVs a bit (I'm not enough of a dick to do full 31s), and give it EVs there before sending it back to my game. Then I train it up from level 1.

I've done IV breeding before, and while the results are something to be proud of, it's pure hell. Plus, B/W changed the Wi-Fi battle system so you can no longer do IV battles. To be honest, spending days breeding a competitively acceptable Pokemon just sucked all the fun out of it. I don't feel like I'm cheating with the way I Pokesav, since I'm just cutting a process from a few hours down to a few minutes. That way I can feed my craving for perfection, then just train the Pokemon up without a hassle like I did back in the simpler times of gens I-III.

Also, I don't really even use the Pokesav Pokemon in competitive battling; they're more because competitive battling has tainted me to the point where I'm not exactly comfortable training a Pokemon in a newer game that's not living up to its full potential, but now I can take all the blood, sweat, and tears out of making them near-perfect. Plus, there's the resulting satisfaction of getting a Pokemon to level 100 and seeing that its Attack or HP is as high as it could possibly be.
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: zephilicious on March 12, 2012, 03:51:39 PM
Quote from: Pennington on March 12, 2012, 02:33:39 PM
I acquire the Pokemon's parents and breed them normally, then I upload the offspring, correct its IVs a bit (I'm not enough of a dick to do full 31s), and give it EVs there before sending it back to my game. Then I train it up from level 1.

this makes no sense, leveling up is possibly (depending on luck with IVs) the most time consuming part of the process
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: Hero_of_Darkness on March 12, 2012, 04:13:08 PM
Quote from: zephilicious on March 12, 2012, 03:51:39 PM
this makes no sense, leveling up is possibly (depending on luck with IVs) the most time consuming part of the process
To be fair, it's not that hard in Black and White.
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: Kayo on March 12, 2012, 05:40:23 PM
Quote from: zephilicious on March 12, 2012, 03:51:39 PM
this makes no sense, leveling up is possibly (depending on luck with IVs) the most time consuming part of the process
You have OBVIOUSLY never IV bred before. It's torturous.

At least leveling up is actually fun; I grew up entering battle after battle and getting EXP. In fact, I hate when my Pokemon level up too quickly. Pretty much all my Pokemon in Black version are above level 75, and I don't really like that, since battling loses its fun after you can kill everything in a single hit without even using the awesome strategy you bred that Pokemon to have.

But yeah, I don't give a intercourse  if leveling up takes more time, it's the most fun part. I don't breed Pokemon just to get them to level 100 ASAP; I like to have a little fun with 'em. And like I said, it's what I've been doing since my first Pokemon game. Not IV breeding.
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: zephilicious on March 13, 2012, 01:29:32 AM
Quote from: Pennington on March 12, 2012, 05:40:23 PM
You have OBVIOUSLY never IV bred before. It's torturous.
With a good set of dittos its very easy to breed for perfect in one stat. (which works as speed is generally the only stat where the difference between 20 something and 31 is relevant, and even then the meta game is far less speed centered now than it was last gen)

Quote from: Pennington on March 12, 2012, 05:40:23 PM
since battling loses its fun after you can kill everything in a single hit without even using the awesome strategy you bred that Pokemon to have.
there is literally no strategy whatsoever to any in game battles
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: Hero_of_Darkness on March 13, 2012, 03:29:22 AM
Quote from: zephilicious on March 13, 2012, 01:29:32 AM
there is literally no strategy whatsoever to any in game battles
Try saying that while fighting Cynthia with an underleveled team of Pokemon that are all slower than Garchomp and all get OHKO'd or 2HKO'd. >_>;
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: zephilicious on March 13, 2012, 11:29:51 AM
compared to pvp anyway
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: Kayo on March 13, 2012, 12:16:00 PM
Quote from: zephilicious on March 13, 2012, 01:29:32 AM
there is literally no strategy whatsoever to any in game battles
Wow. I literally have no words for this.

If you think that the only way to handle in-game battles is to hit with attacking moves until they faint, you're dead wrong and I feel terribly sorry for you. If you breed a Pokemon that gets its fun out of using Dragon Dance to power up its offense or Cosmic Power to stall defensively, that's its strategy. If you're using a bulkier, more defensive Pokemon, you're gonna want to have the fun of using Iron Defense, Toxic, etc. like you would competitively. It loses its fun when you can kill something with a single shot of your only attacking move, if your strategy is something completely different.
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: zephilicious on March 13, 2012, 12:31:47 PM
Of course its not the only way, its simply the only necessary way because anything more is overkill

there's just no point in doing anything else against an opponent that never switches and picks most of their moves randomly
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: Kayo on March 13, 2012, 12:36:23 PM
Quote from: zephilicious on March 13, 2012, 12:31:47 PM
Of course its not the only way, its simply the only necessary way because anything more is overkill

there's just no point in doing anything else against an opponent that never switches and picks most of their moves randomly
...You know, the AI is a bit smarter than that.

I know the Elite Four (and many other high-level NPCs) have a history of switching out to a flying/levitating Pokemon if you use Dig. They'll also switch if your Pokemon is unaffected by their entire moveset (Caitlin's Musharna knows four Psychic-type moves, and she'll switch it out if you use a Dark-type.)

Not as much as a real person switching, but they do more than you give them credit for.
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: zephilicious on March 13, 2012, 12:45:42 PM
5 generations in, the AI still makes absolutely no attempt to predict what you're going to do which is pretty much the entire point of the metagame

why spend 4 or 5 turns building up a strategy that the AI wont bother to avoid when I can just switch to a super effective pokemon, take them out in one hit, and the AI still wont bother to avoid it.
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: Kayo on March 13, 2012, 12:54:21 PM
Quote from: zephilicious on March 13, 2012, 12:45:42 PM
5 generations in, the AI still makes absolutely no attempt to predict what you're going to do which is pretty much the entire point of the metagame

why spend 4 or 5 turns building up a strategy that the AI wont bother to avoid when I can just switch to a super effective pokemon, take them out in one hit, and the AI still wont bother to avoid it.
I don't know what the hell game you were playing, then. That's all I gotta say.
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: Hero_of_Darkness on March 13, 2012, 02:27:59 PM
Quote from: zephilicious on March 13, 2012, 11:29:51 AM
compared to pvp anyway
I cannot argue against this.

Quote from: Pennington on March 13, 2012, 12:36:23 PM
...You know, the AI is a bit smarter than that.

I know the Elite Four (and many other high-level NPCs) have a history of switching out to a flying/levitating Pokemon if you use Dig. They'll also switch if your Pokemon is unaffected by their entire moveset (Caitlin's Musharna knows four Psychic-type moves, and she'll switch it out if you use a Dark-type.)

Not as much as a real person switching, but they do more than you give them credit for.
O_O

OMG! That explains so much...
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: Kayo on March 13, 2012, 02:41:26 PM
Quote from: Hero_of_Darkness on March 13, 2012, 02:27:59 PM
O_O

OMG! That explains so much...
As sarcastic as that looked at first glance, I can't help but think you're serious.
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: Hero_of_Darkness on March 13, 2012, 03:19:01 PM
Quote from: Pennington on March 13, 2012, 02:41:26 PM
As sarcastic as that looked at first glance, I can't help but think you're serious.
I never really thought about that or checked its moveset, okay? >_____>;
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: Zero on March 13, 2012, 06:50:33 PM
Quote from: Pennington on March 12, 2012, 02:33:39 PM
Or you can just use Pokesav to make your life easier. I've done it before, but I try to avoid guilt by not doing anything on there that I couldn't just do myself (albeit taking much more time to do so).

I acquire the Pokemon's parents and breed them normally, then I upload the offspring, correct its IVs a bit (I'm not enough of a dick to do full 31s), and give it EVs there before sending it back to my game. Then I train it up from level 1.

I've done IV breeding before, and while the results are something to be proud of, it's pure hell. Plus, B/W changed the Wi-Fi battle system so you can no longer do IV battles. To be honest, spending days breeding a competitively acceptable Pokemon just sucked all the fun out of it. I don't feel like I'm cheating with the way I Pokesav, since I'm just cutting a process from a few hours down to a few minutes. That way I can feed my craving for perfection, then just train the Pokemon up without a hassle like I did back in the simpler times of gens I-III.

Also, I don't really even use the Pokesav Pokemon in competitive battling; they're more because competitive battling has tainted me to the point where I'm not exactly comfortable training a Pokemon in a newer game that's not living up to its full potential, but now I can take all the blood, sweat, and tears out of making them near-perfect. Plus, there's the resulting satisfaction of getting a Pokemon to level 100 and seeing that its Attack or HP is as high as it could possibly be.

I used Pokesav until the advent of Battle Simulators. There isn't much point to Pokesav for me anymore outside of generating a team for an irl tournament, and even if the teams I make pass the legality checker, ignorant people get rather pissy when they find out you generated your pokemon to have perfect IVs instead of enduring the hell they went through to obtain their team.

I'm not really sure why you're telling me to use Pokesav, you know I have a history with Pokesav. We've had several discussions on it.
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: Kayo on March 13, 2012, 07:05:30 PM
Quote from: Michio Kaku on March 13, 2012, 06:50:33 PM
I used Pokesav until the advent of Battle Simulators. There isn't much point to Pokesav for me anymore outside of generating a team for an irl tournament, and even if the teams I make pass the legality checker, ignorant people get rather pissy when they find out you generated your pokemon to have perfect IVs instead of enduring the hell they went through to obtain their team.

I'm not really sure why you're telling me to use Pokesav, you know I have a history with Pokesav. We've had several discussions on it.
Actually, I most likely forgot about that when I made that post.
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: Hero_of_Darkness on March 13, 2012, 08:01:26 PM
Quote from: Pennington on March 13, 2012, 07:05:30 PM
Actually, I most likely forgot about that when I made that post.
Bad penguin.
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: Zero on March 13, 2012, 08:15:34 PM
Quote from: Pennington on March 13, 2012, 07:05:30 PM
Actually, I most likely forgot about that when I made that post.

Happens
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: Hero_of_Darkness on March 14, 2012, 02:37:45 PM
Since we were talking about the in-game trainers, I just saw somebody playing, and a Claydol used Skill Swap on a Slaking...
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: Kayo on March 14, 2012, 03:05:07 PM
Quote from: Hero_of_Darkness on March 14, 2012, 02:37:45 PM
Since we were talking about the in-game trainers, I just saw somebody playing, and a Claydol used Skill Swap on a Slaking...
Norman used that strategy when you had rematches with him in Emerald version. He'd pair one of his two or three Slakings with one of his normal-types who could use Skill Swap (usually Chansey or Spinda), swap abilities with Slaking, and then if you didn't kill it when it loafed around on the next turn from its new ability (How could you-- you had to focus on the now incredibly dangerous Slaking), it would then pass the ability onto one of your Pokemon.

Yeah, the AI is pretty sneaky.
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: Hero_of_Darkness on March 14, 2012, 03:38:06 PM
Quote from: Pennington on March 14, 2012, 03:05:07 PM
Norman used that strategy when you had rematches with him in Emerald version. He'd pair one of his two or three Slakings with one of his normal-types who could use Skill Swap (usually Chansey or Spinda), swap abilities with Slaking, and then if you didn't kill it when it loafed around on the next turn from its new ability (How could you-- you had to focus on the now incredibly dangerous Slaking), it would then pass the ability onto one of your Pokemon.

Yeah, the AI is pretty sneaky.
No, I mean it used Skill Swap on the player's Slaking. I'm dead serious. It was hilarious.
Title: Re: You know what they could make that would sell?
Post by: Kayo on March 14, 2012, 06:07:37 PM
Quote from: Hero_of_Darkness on March 14, 2012, 03:38:06 PM
No, I mean it used Skill Swap on the player's Slaking. I'm dead serious. It was hilarious.
Claydol has eight eyes, there's no reason for it to know what it's aiming at.